Publication date: 30.03.2023

Transcription:

Gosia Jakubowska: "There will be no second spring" - A child in public space, children and art in the 20th and 21st centuries is the title of the latest exhibition that you can see in the National Gallery of Art "Zachęta". And with me are already wonderful guests: Marina Hulia - educator and teacher - hello

Marina Hulia: Good morning, hello

G: Dorota Cieślik - street artist and representative of Praga Station - hello

Dorota Cieślik: Hi

G: And Ania Szmid - president of the foundation Your Passion - hello

Ania Szmid: Hi, hello everyone.

G: Marina - how do you remember your spring? Those teenage years?

M: Oh, it was a very, very long time ago, it was in the vast expanses of the now defunct Soviet Union, so I joke that I am a child of the Joyful Union. My spring was wildly joyful. I didn't experience the atrocities of that Soviet Union, it so happened. On the other hand, I remember the beautiful Artek scout camp, Niedźwiedzia Góra, the fragrant grasses, the Black Sea, the children from America, and I was convinced all my life that they were rummaging through rubbish bins, digging out banana peels and eating, and here suddenly were well-groomed, wonderful kids. And this opportunity to be together. The opportunity for so many cultures to come together, in wonderful circumstances. I remember my spring as a Consamol spring, well, unfortunately, at that time hugely patriotic, all the time we wanted to do something good for others, with varying degrees of success, but well, unfortunately it was hugely ideological - this upbringing in the Soviet Union, although there was a lot of cool, good... The sunrise after the prom and the promise that we would necessarily meet after many, many years....

G: And the same question I address to Annie.

A: Hmm... my spring was inebriated.

Strongly. It exuded escape and fear. She was afraid to blossom, not accepting what was happening to me, to the world... and somewhere in that spring, colours, art. Painting, shouting out on the walls, in rap, in dance, because at that time I was very much into dance. It was saving me and then I also noticed that it was saving others. And I was already dreaming of a place that could help different springs flourish in this way.

G: We're collecting stories for now..I would ask Dorothy?

D: Well I've had spring all throughout my life. I'm turning 40 this year. And spring all the time. I'm very happy that I still have a lot of energy, a lot of good humour, I want to do things, at the same time I'm very happy that I'm wiser than I was 20 years ago. That first spring when it started I also remember very well. It was at the turn of the century, I was first in punk circles, then hip-hop circles, then techno circles... Generally, my life was ruled by activities, I hated school, I didn't like the people I went to class with too much, but I liked what I did after school, which was all kinds of activities like drawing, painting, playing the saxophone with my grandfather, playing in a punk band, learning Spanish, going to the Vistula and fooling around. And that was great. But there was always a dark side, I was always drawn to stimulants, the melange interested me a lot. Fortunately, thanks to these activities, I didn't have too much time to roll. Well, and I had very cool adults around me, cool parents and grandparents, and people who were running these out-of-school activities, so they were the kind of people who would let you know in a timely manner that you were overreacting, or that "hey, your behaviour is stale and hurting others." Somehow that saved me from going too far like that.

G: I wanted you to now, based on what you have said and also referring to your experiences, say how this translates to today's youth or do today's youth and children also have such a spring where you could compare it to yours, Marina ...?

M: Definitely not. I was the only daughter in my family among the 7,000 books I absorbed amidst ballet lessons, music lessons. My children, on the other hand, I call them endangered species. Once a child with a ragged childhood, a refugee child, a disabled child with bipolar disorder, my Tamerlan hugged me and asked: "Marina if they kill all the Chechens on earth and I am the only one left, will I be an endangered protected species?". And that's how he treats them. It shocked me at the time, because he had so much disease and fear in his head. No one wanted to teach him, I was his one-to-one teacher, but the previous three one-to-one teachers had left, and the last one he "chilled the living cat" by shouting: "I'm not going to learn" and suddenly that was the question. And then I made education, teaching, into an art. He didn't want to learn just like that, so I made up spelling songs that we sang, because he loved to sing. He didn't want to learn, and 'no' with verbs, so it was: "what's he doing? It stands for verb, and here it doesn't stand for verb. 'No' with verbs is written separately." Everything was a game. Everything was art. Everything was a contest. He learned to read and write, even though psychiatrists ruled that he might never learn. For 25 years I have just been helping Chechen children, refugee children, children of prisoners and these are all children burned by fate, with a ragged childhood. They don't have this spring as it should be - colourful, with friends, safe...They are still in danger. To actually return this childhood to these children was incredibly difficult. Art helped, because it's not the place that rules man, but man can fill a place with himself, with meaning, colour, art, and if he doesn't know how to do art, even with a trick that will be a relief and will be such a partial return of childhood, and that's what I do. I'm returning childhood to endangered species.

G: Those children you talked about, those Chechen children. They were excluded from society and today I have the impression that we are encountering that too.

M: Indeed, if a kid comes and they hear your rustling language. Or when I was learning Polish in Ukraine, because I'm from Cherkas in Ukraine and there was this vinyl record and the guy was saying: "I'm happy, I'm combing". And I'm thinking to myself: 'great nation, that they, they not only pronounce it, but also differentiate!'. So a child arrives, not like me, that I speak Belarusian, Ukrainian, Russian, so Polish asap. And here comes a child who speaks [here phrases in Chechen]. This is a completely different language group. Here comes a child who doesn't go to church on Sunday but goes to the mosque on Friday, right, here comes a child who doesn't eat pork and the first word I learn is 'pork'. to read whether there's pork gelatine on yoghurt. A child who simply sees lovers kissing in the streets. Chechen culture is a touchless culture. There is no such thing there. And suddenly the whole world is different and yet in a rustling, incomprehensible language, so it's hugely difficult. And yet, somewhere in the back, there's been domestic violence, and yet in the back there's been two bloody Russian-Chechen wars, and yet in the back there's been, like then 2016, I introduced a democratic school in Brest railway station, and yet in the back there's been nomadism in Brest railway station, in hunger, in cold, in uncertainty, so it's very difficult for these children enormously difficult. 

G: We are talking about language, even though the language is one, the cultures are a bit different. I'm thinking of Prague here, and here I'm already heading to Dorota. I grew up in Warsaw's Praga district myself, so I know how specific this place is, despite everything. On the one hand, it is said to be a district like any other, but on the other hand, it is unique and even the language can differ between this right-bank Warsaw and this left-bank one.

D: I live and work in Praga. Well it's the kind of place where it's certainly easier to meet young people on the street, where there's obviously a shopping centre and young people hang out there. It's one of those places (not many that are left) where there are young people in the backyards, where there are young people on the whackers, where they go around, beat blisters, break windows sometimes, sometimes just looking for some activity, some fun... well there's actually a completely different architecture too. Maybe it's just conducive to this sitting in the courtyards, because there are wells, there are unenclosed gates.... I know that people in new blocks of flats, for example, find it disturbing that someone is sitting there under the block and making noises. In our area it's normal to be noisy. It's just a matter of deciding to what extent it can be loud and in which areas. Are young people different? They are also different. There is a lot of poorer youth, there is a lot of unprotected youth, and there are still a lot of places where you can go to do some extracurricular activities or hang out, but there are also a lot of young people who are not interested in spending their time in a normal way, or who are interested, but they can't cope there because they haven't been taught any rules at home, plus they have a lot of disorders, behaviours that don't allow them to sit still and follow the rules of a place. And all this means that you can actually see young people on the streets of Prague. They are there, they leave all sorts of traces. From my experience (of previous Street Workers), I can say that these are young people who are easy to get along with. They are also willing to talk to an adult if they need or want something, so they are able to arrange it, get to know each other. Smart with big behavioural problems. We let him in, gave him something to draw on and that's how he's been coming for a year now, and you can see that his behaviour in general has improved a lot. His compliance with the rules has improved. It's still difficult for him, but he doesn't set things on fire for us anymore, he just goes and lights scented candles....

G: "There will be no second spring" is an exhibition that is available at the Zachęta gallery, which deals with the issue of education and also with art that can help in this education, and here I would like to address Ani. Do you agree with Marina's words, who said a moment ago that "it is not the place that governs the man, but the man that governs the place" and that in any place, for good measure, we are able to educate through art?

A: I think it is not the place that matters, it is the purpose that matters. If a person knows what they are there for and where they are, well then in any place, even the most hardcore, they are able to generate something beautiful. An extreme example of this is Victor Frank, who had a therapy group in Auschwitz and, after he survived that camp, published a book called In Search of Meaning. He wrote it there, on scraps of paper, so I think art, because it's been in us since childhood and when we're, I don't know, pissed off, we take a piece of paper and crayons and we scribble on that scrap of paper, we paint. This expression, naming, wanting to find meaning, has always been in us and art helps with that. Not only does art diagnose even what we can't name, but it also makes you confront your opinion about it. It is a challenge when you have to perform on stage, say something, sing... it is a form that teaches us to work with our motivation, with our emotions, with our thinking, because in suffering, wherever we are, stereotypes are activated. Anyway, everyone has some patterns and art makes us start to think with analogies, with deductions. We start to have imagination, we start to use symbols. These are very important things and we also create self-presentation. It gives us a different identity. I'm no longer a gate-keeper. I'm an actor, I'm a dancer, I'm a writer, I'm a sound engineer...with all these skills and the development of self-awareness and self-reflection of being in the here and now alone with yourself and transforming yourself through such an incredible reality as art, you can discover your potential, your profession, your vocation, your purpose, just your meaning. I think this is very helpful.

G: I don't know about you, but I was already feeling very tired of winter, and I'm very happy that it finally started to get warm, that I saw the first flowers.... And I say this because I think that this spring can be very fruitful for all of us, every spring we experience. And also for the children we are talking about, in the context of the exhibition at the Zachęta, this spring is incredibly relevant, important.... And still staying with Ani - how do you think this age is experienced by young people and children today?

A: You know what, I think this is where young people and children should be and answer this question. These are smart people, young people, they are not yet spoiled by these patterns of adulthood, diplomacy, they can really be very sincere, open, beautiful in all this, idealistic and it doesn't matter if they are from Praga or Wola or Wilanów. I think the problems are similar, they just differ in their portfolios. There is fear generated by the system everywhere and not just in the kids, because it's in us too, so in them too. And I think they're the ones who should be answering that question.

G: Then Marina, what can be done to make the voice of children from different social backgrounds, from different nationalities too, heard?

M: I talk to the children every day in different languages, because I still have wonderful kids in my care. These children are students from Ukraine, from Kazakhstan, from Belarus, who woke up a year ago on 24 February as refugees in their dormitory, who no longer have anywhere to go back to, because like their parents, most of them also came here. These conversations we have about war, about peace, about spring, about how we are going to live now.... they are endless. We talk all the time and we also sing. In March, when the war started and the crowds of Ukrainians started arriving, we went to the (then still existing) new world of music. We stood on the balcony and sang in Ukrainian [here the words of the song in Ukrainian] and the Ukrainians were standing down, they didn't understand the letters because we write in Cyrillic and here we write in Latin, so all of a sudden a Georgian [here the words in Georgian] just came from the balcony. The students from Ukraine [sang] they all put up these Ukrainian or Chechen independent flags [and sang], so that was needed too. Just that kind of art. Restoring dignity and spring to these children of mine is through them giving very much of themselves. Together we make bird feeders beautiful, colourful and it gives meaning. And to Kazik, who has a carpentry workshop in his summerhouse, right, and the children from Brest railway station, Chechen children and Ukrainian students. And it's about bringing everyone together with something good, nice, clever, but not what we invent ourselves, but what they want to do, because Chechen children don't like to sing they like to dance - they dance. Ukrainian children don't like to dance, they like to sing, so they sing. Diana doesn't like to dance or sing (Ukrainian), so she draws, and so it all comes together beautifully. And besides, my method of restoring dignity and meaning is to involve children in very big art projects. For example, my children from the Brest station - Edernberg, Mariam and Milana - performed beautifully in Hani Rani's music video 'Malasana'. A beautiful performance. They performed wonderfully, there will soon be a film "Kajtuś - the wizard" at Magda Łazarkiewicz. There will soon be an exhibition by Inka Rosocha "I can't look at it". - photographs of people with their eyes closed. People who cannot look at war, at the devastation of the planet, at what they are doing to us. It very much restores dignity, faith, because now: I'm a model/model, an actor, a singer, a dancer, a writer...What Anna said - I agree completely. I'm not a rapper, but I write lyrics like this for grannies at a retirement home. 

*all laugh*.

D: You look like a rapper, absolutely! You sound as if you were singing!

G: It's because of that cap!

A: I might add that looking at needs is important. You don't have your pattern of working with a young person, you just look at needs, at talent, at potential. And the other thing that both girls said is adult love. This is very important, because each of us can be that Marina, Doris, me, for these young people. We're talking about listening, about but also giving just the space for these kids to express their own needs. I feel that in today's world this is very difficult. 

G: How can we reach out to adults, also young adults who are starting to raise their children, to give that voice to the children?

D: The parents that I know, people my age, who have kids of their own, are usually nice people - open-minded people who look for such subjective methods of upbringing. It also seems to me that there are more and more schools, kindergartens and institutions which help to bring up children in a more free and subjective way. It also seems to me that there is a growing awareness among parents, but I suspect that outside my bubble there are many people who cannot do it, who are not interested in it and maybe they would like to, but they do not know what they are doing wrong. I'd like all the people who have some influence on children and young people to find cool methods and to understand that you have to listen and give space before something bad happens, before they need the help of a psychologist or psychiatrist.

A: I'll approach this from the other direction. How do you give youth and children a voice ? - To get more interested in youth culture, to let them be more graphic, to go underground, where rap is an opportunity for young people to express themselves, and music in general, and what they create - to give them money for that. How do you do projects in the city that are meant for young people, maybe invite them to a consultation, what do young people really need, because these are already people who somewhere have this self-awareness, they are born with these needs, they have dreams, they have desires and they also have a very hard time implementing, because young people are the least looked after group in this country. When it comes to various projects, venues, funding for these venues, instead of inviting celebrities, for example for the "Night of Prague", or other events there, invite local bands, let local young people paint murals on Stalowa Street, and elsewhere, rather than big artists out of the blue, and so on. There is a lot of that. In my opinion, where we can fulfil the potential is to start listening to them.

G: What tools can we use and what tools do artists use to influence the psychological condition of children, young people through art?

M: Very intricate. I don't use tools, except when making feeders at Kazik's place. There are tools like a vise, a saw to make a feeder, a paintbrush...and then he is so pretty, with a Chechen flag on one side. When there was the tragedy of the Amazon forest we were making feeders for the children from Brest station, we were saving the Amazon forests, so the tool... I don't know what the tools are. Simply, you need everything to be: colour, whoever can. I, for example, always sing, because I like it very much. Occasional songs. I also write the lyrics, music and record. And it doesn't have to be beautiful and necessarily go to some competition. Just like drawing. My daughter is as old as Dorota, so I don't remember the hardships of parenting anymore, but I became a mum at almost 60. In my house, on my sofa, in a huge pampers, lies my mother - a refugee from Ukraine, who calls me mummy, because she recognises me once and doesn't recognise me once. The trick is to make her happy, so when I clean we sing a song in Russian, about cleaning. I arranged 4 lines, my mum memorised it and we sing [here singing in Russian]. I told her that we were going to participate in a singing competition, and she believed that we would win a huge amount of money and share it with all the orphans from Ukraine. And now when someone comes, she says: "can we perform our repertoire? because Marina and I are preparing for the competition". When the students came, who wrote a beautiful song, drew and wrote beautiful wishes in Russian, in Ukrainian for mum, mum sang the whole repertoire to them and the students pretended that they were the committee and that mum had won and she still thinks that she has won the competition. It's all about making sense. That it all makes sense to the person it's aimed at and it's about making everything beautiful and pretty and then it becomes art itself. If it's going to be ugly, stripped down suffering, given 'well, because I have to', 'well, because you have to', well, then nothing will come out of it, so we cook all the time. And I - I don't cook, I sing, I walk around and so I urge, I look in, I generally get in the way, but it's always fun, because there I turn on the music, I start dancing myself, I introduce the guests of honour. It was wonderful when the US ambassador with me was sticking these buns, I said: "Mr Mark, when you're no longer an ambassador, you're going to be a baker", so it's wonderful, To stick it all together like that. I don't want to cook and I never will, because I hate it. Chechens love it - let them cook, but they don't like to sing - I don't make them sing. I sing, so it's all about including yourself, not sacrificing yourself, not bending, just doing what you like - joyful, upbeat, colourful and fun.

G: Today, urban spaces, housing estates are built for money and profit, not for the future, for children, for young people. And so I think that in this chaos we live in, how do we find the golden key to get it under control? And so that it is the human being who starts to rule over this place and not the place over the human being? 

M: Some things we can't change. We can't influence the architecture. I tried all last year to get them to stop mowing the grass, to just keep the ground green, I couldn't do anything because I was told they were going to mow and that's the end of the basta, so I thought they must have hired their nephews, with those petrol mowers, they walk around like that, so some things we can't influence. There's no need to call the city greenkeeper because I already know what the answer will be. On the other hand, we have an impact always on the people and this is a living house. It's the people that make up that community, whether in some backyard or prison waiting room, it doesn't matter. What matters is what happens between adults and children, children to each other. What matters is that we like being with each other a lot, we used to dance in Saxon Park for a long time, for example, because when there was a pandemic and there was nowhere to go, donors brought us humanitarian aid in bags. That's how they placed these bags one and a half metres apart in Saxon Park. We danced there in costumes, it was sweet, beautiful and wonderful. And no pandemonium got in the way of that. Art and tricks, if not great art. For example, I can't do much there, but I will play the pot - yes, still rhythmically. So we take the pots - we play, it doesn't matter where - whether on the terrace or in the middle of a solitary convalescent home, the important thing is that the grandmothers know that we love them, that the Polish grandmother has a Chechen grandson, the Chechen grandson has a Polish grandmother. And this space - it becomes completely unimportant. I think it's worse here for young people with disabilities, because there are also a lot of places that are not adapted, and this is where physicality comes into play. You can't get a wheelchair into a place where you can't get it. Look at our central station; it's not just a pram, you can't even put your suitcase down there, because there are no ramps. It's already hard and it absolutely has to be fought against, not to exclude. You will see how few disabled people we have on the streets. In Scandinavia they sit in cafés everywhere. In Scandinavia, they sit in cafes everywhere. And here we have the impression that we are the ones who are very disabled and they are not - it's not true that they have financial, physical and social opportunities here. It is really difficult.

G: What tools can we use and what tools do artists use to influence the psychological condition of children, young people through art?

M: Very intricate. I don't use tools, except when making feeders at Kazik's place. There are tools like a vise, a saw to make a feeder, a paintbrush...and then he is so pretty, with a Chechen flag on one side. When there was the tragedy of the Amazon forest we were making feeders for the children from Brest station, we were saving the Amazon forests, so the tool... I don't know what the tools are. Simply, you need everything to be: colour, whoever can. I, for example, always sing, because I like it very much. Occasional songs. I also write the lyrics, music and record. And it doesn't have to be beautiful and necessarily go to some competition. Just like drawing. My daughter is as old as Dorota, so I don't remember the hardships of parenting anymore, but I became a mum at almost 60. In my house, on my sofa, in a huge pampers, lies my mother - a refugee from Ukraine, who calls me mummy, because she recognises me once and doesn't recognise me once. The trick is to make her happy, so when I clean we sing a song in Russian, about cleaning. I arranged 4 lines, my mum memorised it and we sing [here singing in Russian]. I told her that we were going to participate in a singing competition, and she believed that we would win a huge amount of money and share it with all the orphans from Ukraine. And now when someone comes, she says: "can we perform our repertoire? because Marina and I are preparing for the competition". When the students came, who wrote a beautiful song, drew and wrote beautiful wishes in Russian, in Ukrainian for mum, mum sang the whole repertoire to them and the students pretended that they were the committee and that mum had won and she still thinks that she has won the competition. It's all about making sense. That it all makes sense to the person it's aimed at and it's about making everything beautiful and pretty and then it becomes art itself. If it's going to be ugly, stripped down, suffering, given 'well, because I have to', 'well, because you have to', well, then nothing will come out of it, so we cook all the time. And I - I don't cook, I sing, I walk around and so I urge, I look in, I generally get in the way, but it's always fun, because there I turn on the music, I start dancing myself, I introduce the guests of honour. It was wonderful when the US ambassador with me was sticking these buns, I said: "Mr Mark, when you're no longer an ambassador, you're going to be a baker", so it's wonderful, To stick it all together like that. I don't want to cook and I never will, because I hate it. Chechens love it - let them cook, but they don't like to sing - I don't make them sing. I sing, so it's all about including yourself, not sacrificing yourself, not bending, just doing what you like - joyful, upbeat, colourful and fun.

G: Is this the same recipe Dorothy has in terms of these tools we can use to influence the mental condition of children and young people?

D: It's amazing ! You are able to enter someone's world and adjust the situation and your attitude accordingly! ... Well... I like it a lot too, I think the same way, because there is no single recipe for how to work with young people, or with people in general. Closer to me, of course, is the work where I ask them what they want to paint, that it's their wall, that they also have to take responsibility for it later! Ok, they can try to paint some vulgar things on there, but then they'll see it every day and they'll have to face the fact that someone is unhappy, that someone will criticise it, and maybe even someone will come and paint it over, so I think that just anyone who wants to work with young people or invite young people to do so, has to find their own way of doing it, in which they themselves also feel comfortable, in which the people involved will also have something to say....

A: I can understand cooking, some of that everyday stuff, absolutely in love, in joy - anyone who likes it - it's all good, but when it comes to learning a trade and facing one's own vocation, it can be a challenge to do catering for an exhibition, for example, if someone likes to cook. Then everyone tastes it and tells that person if it's good, what needs to be worked on. The same with making a music video. There's also a very important thing that we watch very closely, which is making the best material. Not giving just anything, but the best paints, a professional recording programme, a professional studio, so that the end result is really good. Making an effort so that these people don't give up, because it's a struggle. It comes out, like in sports. When someone or a team loses - in sport it shows right away. When people give up - it's the same in art. I always say that working on a piece is working on your own personality. 

G: I think Dorota wanted to add something else here....

D: I didn't think I would ever say this, but accountability is great! It's such a great thing. I realised this quite recently, that with responsibility comes freedom. That giving someone responsibility is very nurturing and developing. I've seen a lot of projects where the young people don't feel responsible for their project because they know 'you care anyway and you're going to be held accountable for it and you have to do it', so they don't feel that. That's what I see with you (at Your Passion) is that there's always that element of responsibility, that ok - you're treated as an equal, you're taken seriously, you're treated with dignity, but precisely, you also take responsibility for cleaning up for how it's going to look, for getting it done in time and for making sure that even if it's difficult for you, you still get to the end. Somehow learning to ask for help. I'm just learning that.

G: Ending our conversation slowly, what can we do and how can we make sure that children from different social circles are present in the public space and that their voice is heard and is art a sufficient tool for this Marina?

M: Not the only one, I dislike the word 'tool' terribly much because I associate it with a shovel, but art is always art. Art is never harmful, art is always good, it's always positive, but when it comes to children, to the excluded, it's worth talking about them. I'm digitally excluded, at my own request, I've never touched a computer in my life, I haven't sent an email and I have on buttons, but I'm remotely running a Facebook "Children from Brest Station" - I dictate to the administrator who puts it all on there, I dictate the story of the children, the story of the mums - these are thirty-five, thirty-seven-year-old Chechen women where it's now their second spring, because when it was their spring, there were two wars. I tell the story of Medina, who finished her education at the fourth year of primary school because Russian soldiers put explosives in toys when a child picked up a teddy bear... - to pieces. Her father decided that she would sit at home and not go to school. As long as people think about refugee children, children of war, and they don't know the story of a particular Edelbieg, Ramzan, Maliki, Madina, it will be such a mass for them, it will be a nobody. When people read about such simple things, then they understand both pain and exclusion, and then for them it is no longer a grey mass, but these are concrete children who can be concretely helped. If only by inviting them to something interesting, like a hip-hop concert, to the theatre, or when we were at Zachęta... and just imagine - my Chechen children watched the exhibition in such a way that the photo "Chechen Children at Zachęta" won the World Press award, the photo by Marta Rybicka. I remember it was such a horrible exhibition, there were pictures of an old lady who had made horrible frames out of nothing and the children were so fascinated as they stood and watched everything so much that this picture just won. It's all supposed to be vivid and it's supposed to be very individual, it's supposed to show every child, every mum, every spring, because every spring is different. 

A: Art yes, it is one of the elements, besides love, truth, communication, looking at the needs, not working with a scheme, because everyone has talents, everyone has dreams. It's worth facing it, listening to it, and doing what you love and loving what you do.

And art makes you realise that and I think it's a very important element. Often ignored. 

G: Also, let's not forget, sorry to interrupt, that art is also education and simply through it we also educate ourselves simply!

A: Yes, we also learn self-education, motivation to work, we learn diligence, consistency, because if you want to be a dancer, you can't do it without consistency, and by the way, whoever you want to be, I think everyone trains different skills, different professions, but only the consistent ones stay on the board. I know an awful lot of people who got scared of their own vocation and just went for the easy way because they have that money, but they're damn unhappy. In my opinion, what art also does (sensitivity, beauty and harmony), all that goes behind it (freedom), is make us able to fall in love with our own desires, talent, potential, what we really want to do. It's very important that we are just able to take that initiative, take a risk and change reality in a creative way, because that's also what art gives you - you start thinking creatively, imaginatively....

D: I don't have such a positive summary. I have a rather negative one, because I'm aware that there are some people like us (with such an attitude), and that we can also do a lot, but I think that the system that Ania mentioned at the beginning is something stronger than us, and that unfortunately should change there, and I wish there were people involved and open-minded and willing to listen to young people and people's needs in general, because then in fact our activities wouldn't be isolated and so many activists and artists and young people wouldn't end up frustrated and depressed.

G: Let's hope it will happen, because we are also just talking about this future of education and art. Of course, we leave you with this reflection and, of course, I encourage you to take a look at Zachęta and see what has been achieved so far, not only by our Polish artists such as Paweł Althamer, but also by others from abroad. Thank you very much for this meeting today, we might just end up saying that there will be no Second Spring, but there is still a chance to save it, thanks to, among other things, these wonderful guests who were with us - Marina Hulia - thank you very much!

M: Thank you. 

G: Dorota Cieślik - thank you.

D: Thank you very much.

G: And Ania Szmid - thank you also.

D: And I just wanted to say... 

A: Thanks! All the best!

D: Greetings to all the people who are involved with and believe in young people and give to their cause. 

A: And greetings to the young people too!

D: First and foremost to the young people! You are wonderful!

Translated by: Aleksandra Sioda